Transcript
[00:00] You don’t actually have to sing to [00:03] worship because worship and singing are [00:05] completely different things. [00:07] >> Nice. And unfortunately in our modern [00:10] society within [00:12] Christian culture we have been taught [00:15] that [00:16] we’re going to stand, we’re going to [00:17] worship. [00:17] >> Yeah. Right? And or you listen to the [00:19] radio and they’re like, let’s worship. [00:21] Or like worship now, Air 1. And they [00:24] equate music to worship. [00:26] >> Yeah. [00:26] >> But that is such a wrong view of [00:27] worship. It’s a very, very narrow sliver [00:31] of what you can do to worship God. [00:33] Because worship actually is an [00:35] all-encompassing whole life endeavor [00:38] wherein every single aspect and avenue [00:41] you’re trying to bring God glory. So [00:44] worship is a life submitted to bringing [00:46] God glory in all things. [00:47] >> Mhm. That’s the sentence [clears throat] [00:48] that I think everybody needs to [00:49] understand. Worship is a life submitted [00:52] to bringing God glory in all things. And [00:54] you can do it through music, but music [00:56] does not equal worship. Yeah. And so we [00:58] have just this major misconception. And [01:00] a lot of pastors will get on stage and [01:02] say, are you guys ready to worship? [01:04] Yeah, yeah. [01:04] >> go into the song. So they’re actually [01:05] like training the congregation to think [01:08] wrongly about worship. Or at least to [01:09] think way too narrow. [01:11] >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I can worship [01:13] God in a million different ways. I can [01:15] worship him with my mind by thinking [01:18] about him or by reading things that are [01:21] stimulating and pleasing to him, you [01:23] know, helping my mind love him with all [01:25] my heart, soul, mind, and strength. [01:27] That’s like [01:27] >> Yeah. Jesus said that’s the number one [01:28] command. [01:29] >> Yeah, yeah. [01:30] >> Right? And so heart, soul, mind, and [01:31] strength encapsulates all of you. Yeah. [01:33] >> So yeah, worship is way bigger than just [01:36] singing on Sundays. Now, all that said, [01:38] you should still sing to the Lord on [01:40] Sundays cuz it’s commanded in scripture. [01:43] And you can sing to him on Sundays in [01:44] the gathering, you can sing to him on [01:46] Tuesdays in your kitchen, and you can [01:48] use singing to worship him. But singing [01:51] does not uh [01:52] singing does not automatically equal [01:54] worship. [01:55] >> That’s super interesting cuz like you [01:56] said, like even if you look on Spotify [01:58] and you want to [01:59] listen to, you know, you just search [02:01] worship music or that’d be like a genre. [02:03] So, it’s so ingrained that like music is [02:05] the worship. But, that doesn’t mean [02:06] necessarily, I mean, what are your [02:08] thoughts? Like, if I just play a worship [02:09] song in the car as I’m driving, like you [02:12] know, if it’s on the background, maybe [02:13] if I’m singing along to it, it’s more [02:14] worship. But, it’s not just like playing [02:16] the song equals now you’re worshipping [02:18] God. What do you think? [02:19] >> so there is now an entire category or [02:22] genre of music called worship music that [02:24] has a certain style and sound, sometimes [02:27] kind of very annoying, [02:28] >> [laughter] [02:29] >> and very abrasive and loud and [02:31] screeching. But, yeah, that genre is now [02:34] known as worship, but it’s so wrong. [02:37] Like, that is not a category. But, [02:39] you’re right, you can be singing in the [02:41] car or have worship music on in the [02:43] background and not be worshipping God. [02:45] You could have worship music on and be [02:47] driving down the beach and looking at a [02:48] chick who’s running on the side of the [02:50] road. [02:50] >> And you’re definitely not worshipping [02:51] God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, [02:54] uh no, [02:55] having music on in the background or [02:57] even singing along does not mean that [02:58] your heart is [03:00] truly adoring the Lord or expressing his [03:03] infinite worth in that moment. In fact, [03:06] in Amos chapter 5, it talks about um God [03:10] is [03:11] chastising the Israelites for putting on [03:13] this loud noisy music festival. So, it’s [03:15] a it’s one of the religious feasts or [03:17] festivals that he commands the [03:19] Israelites to do, and they’re doing it [03:21] and they’re doing it loudly with music [03:22] and they’ve got the band ready, they’re [03:23] rocking out, and he says, “Take away [03:25] from me the noise of your songs. Get [03:27] this stuff I will not listen to the [03:29] sound of your harps, the sound of your [03:31] electric guitars. Rather, let justice [03:33] flow like a a rolling river or a rolling [03:36] stream, right? Righteousness is what he [03:38] wants.” And so, he’s like, “I don’t want [03:39] your songs cuz your songs are not the [03:42] point. Your heart is the point. And [03:44] [clears throat] if your heart’s in the [03:45] right place, then sure, then your songs [03:46] are going to be pleasing to me. But, if [03:49] your heart’s not in the right place and [03:50] your life’s not in the right place, [03:51] >> Yeah. then the songs are just trash. [03:54] Yeah. [03:55] It’s a loud noise. [03:56] >> Yeah, it’s noise. Take away from me the [03:58] noise of your songs. It’s noisy. It’s [03:59] It’s annoying. I don’t like it. [04:01] >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. How do you I [04:02] mean this is kind of a tangent, but how [04:04] do you as a worship pastor like where [04:05] you draw that line between like we want [04:07] to have good quality stuff, right? We [04:09] want to like do things with excellence, [04:11] but also we don’t want to like [04:13] you know, not to call anybody out. We [04:14] don’t have make it a rock concert, you [04:15] know, to like it’s to the extreme where [04:17] it’s just noise. Like where do you draw [04:19] the line there? Well, that’s more of a [04:20] stylistic thing cuz you can worship God [04:22] with a nice acoustic guitar. You can [04:24] worship God with just a piano. You can [04:26] You can help the church sing with many [04:27] different uh orientations of of the [04:30] band, right? [04:31] >> But I think we do want to do everything [04:34] with excellence. If you think about how [04:36] God commanded Moses to build the [04:38] tabernacle, he said hire the best [04:40] craftsman and use the best material and [04:43] do intricate detailed carvings on all [04:46] these tiny little intricate pieces [04:48] because I want you to I want the space [04:50] where I’m worship to be done with [04:52] excellence and beauty. Well, in in fact [04:54] like God gives the workmen his spirit to [04:57] do it. Like this is one of the first [04:58] times we see God’s spirit come on [04:59] someone. It’s like he’s [05:01] doing the beautiful art of the [05:02] tabernacle. Like God cares about it that [05:03] much. [05:04] >> Yeah. So, we should We should play with [05:07] any even says in Psalm 33:3, play [05:09] skillfully unto the Lord. So, we should [05:11] yeah, do really well and not put on a [05:14] poor presentation. If you were going to [05:16] play for the president of whatever [05:18] country, if you don’t like the president [05:19] of the United States, pick a different [05:20] president. If you were going to go play [05:22] before someone of supreme importance, [05:24] you would [05:25] really practice and bring your very best [05:28] to that moment. Why would we not do even [05:30] more work to prepare to present [05:32] something before the creator of the [05:34] universe and sustainer of our reality, [05:36] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that’s a good [05:38] point. [05:38] >> Definitely excellence matters to the [05:39] Lord in music and in everything. Yeah, [05:42] gotcha. So, in our worship on a Sunday, [05:45] like you’re making the claim that not [05:46] all of our singing is worship. Um and [05:48] you’re pushing towards like [05:50] you know, even in your daily life you’re [05:52] doing things that are worship. You bring [05:53] up that Amos passage like what you do in [05:55] your daily life could disqualify your [05:57] worship from being pleasing to God. [05:59] What are like practical steps we can [06:00] take to like make sure that we are [06:03] describing worth [clears throat] to God [06:05] on Sunday mornings? [06:06] >> Yeah, and you’re using an interesting [06:07] word, worth. [06:09] The English word worship comes from the [06:12] Old English word worthship. [06:15] >> Mhm. [06:15] >> [snorts] [06:15] >> So, worship is about describing God [06:17] worth. You are so worthy, you are so [06:20] valuable to me, Lord. You are so lovely [06:23] to me that I want to put you up in the [06:26] highest place in my heart and in my life [06:28] and in my obedience and in my actions. [06:30] Like that’s how worthy you are that I’m [06:32] willing to forsake these lesser things [06:34] in order to to place you higher. Mhm. [06:36] And so, yeah, worth is a great way to [06:39] look at [06:40] honoring the Lord in everything. And I [06:43] don’t exactly recall what your question [06:45] was. If if I’m hearing this and I’m [06:46] hearing not all your singing is worship, [06:48] I want to say like, well, I want it to [06:50] be. So, like what are real steps I can [06:51] take to make my singing worship? Well, [06:54] the first thing we do need to kind of [06:57] lay down is that God does want us to [07:00] sing to him. [07:00] >> Yeah, that’s good. [07:01] >> He actually commands 55 times, not [07:04] suggests. He says, “No, you I’m [07:06] commanding you sing to me.” [07:08] >> Mhm. 55 times in the scripture and then [07:10] 18 other times in the scripture he [07:11] commands us to make music to him. So, [07:13] obviously, you can worship God through [07:16] music and he wants us to use music as [07:18] this tool to bring our praise to him, to [07:21] elevate him, to put him high in our [07:23] minds and in our hearts, right? Worship [07:26] the Lord in spirit and in truth. There’s [07:27] a few interpretations, but one of the [07:29] interpretations is that we can worship [07:31] God with our intellect and our emotions. [07:33] So, it’s like the spirit, the emotions, [07:35] and truth, our mind, right? It’s like [07:37] this whole [07:38] the truth matters cuz you need to be [07:41] having informed worship. I know who I’m [07:43] worshipping. I’m worshipping him in a [07:44] way that’s pleasing to him. I’m not [07:45] like, you know, like in the Old [07:47] Testament, they were like having orgies [07:49] and like weird, I’m sorry for saying [07:50] that on a podcast everybody, but they’re [07:52] they’re they’re literally using sex to [07:54] worship the, you know, and so yeah, and [07:56] even in the [07:58] Aaron and the golden calf, it says they [08:01] were in revelry, which is probably [08:03] something along those lines, right? So [08:04] so we have to worship God in a way that [08:06] he like delineates for us. And um yeah, [08:11] and so back to the concept of singing, [08:13] he does tell us to sing to him. And he [08:16] says in Ephesians, it’s either Ephesians [08:19] 2:18 and 19 or Colossians 3:16. It might [08:22] even be in both passages. He says, “Sing [08:23] and make melody from your heart.” So it [08:26] has to be an informed worship that [08:30] because I understand who he is and what [08:32] he’s done for me, now I’m like so [08:35] thankful. Like it’s it’s based on truth. [08:38] Like my response to him is based on [08:39] truth. And biblical worship, I would [08:42] dare say is always a response. So like [08:45] we see who God is and then we respond to [08:48] that reality. An example would be [08:52] um Peter in the boat, when he sees Jesus [08:55] with the miraculous catch of fish, as [08:57] soon as he understands who Jesus is, so [09:00] there’s this revelation, then there’s a [09:02] response. He falls on his knees and [09:04] says, “Away from me, Lord, I’m a sinful [09:06] man.” It’s like this [09:07] response of awe to who he is now [09:10] standing in front of. It was revealed to [09:12] him in that moment. And then Isaiah in [09:14] Isaiah 6 says, “I saw the Lord seated on [09:16] the throne, the train of his robe filled [09:18] the temple with glory.” And he he falls [09:21] down like a dead man, right? [laughter] [09:23] And so worship in my mind, it’s always [09:25] revelation first, then response. [09:28] Um so I know we got away from the whole [09:31] singing makes sense concept, but yeah. [09:32] So I think when we sing to the Lord, we [09:35] want to sing with our minds engaged and [09:37] our hearts engaged. And sometimes, for [09:39] those people who have a hard time [09:41] singing at church, like we have to kind [09:44] of command our soul [09:46] to hey, wake up soul. Like David did [09:48] that all a bunch of times in the Psalms. [09:50] He’s like he tells his own soul, wake up [09:53] my soul, you’re getting too sleepy here. [09:56] Like look at who you’re worshipping, [09:58] focus, pay attention. And of course, [10:01] there’s a lot of distractions in the [10:02] room and in our own minds and in our own [10:04] hearts. And the enemy is probably also [10:07] shooting little fiery darts at us to get [10:09] us distracted. Our phones are keeping us [10:10] distracted. So it’s like you have to [10:12] almost fight for focus to say Lord, like [10:15] help me to see you, help me to [10:16] understand you, and help me to [10:19] both behold your beauty and then respond [10:22] rightly to you. So it’s I I would say [10:25] long way around to answer your question, [10:27] we have to ask God to help us [10:30] worship him, you know? Yeah. Well, it [10:31] sounds like you’re saying it in two [10:33] places. Like one is broadly in your [10:35] whole life. Like if if you’re not [10:37] honoring God with your heart, when you [10:39] open your lips to sing, you’re not going [10:40] to be honoring him. That’s like Isaiah [10:42] 29:13. You You honor me with your lips, [10:44] but your heart is far from me. [10:46] Which is And then even in the moment of [10:49] worship. So it’s not like not just your [10:51] whole life, you need to be focused on [10:52] these things, but even when [10:54] you are singing, like it it’s work to [10:57] engage your heart and your mind. [11:00] Um that’s convicting to me. I feel like [11:02] I stand up in church and and it’s [11:03] usually cuz it’s songs that I know [11:04] really well that I can just like kind of [11:07] rote-ly sing them without [11:10] really thinking about the words. That by [11:12] the end of the song I’ll be convicted [11:13] that I’m like, oh my gosh, I didn’t [11:14] focus on that at all. Yeah, thankfully [11:16] there’s grace for us in all those [11:18] moments. Yeah. I mean, as a guy who [11:20] plays these songs a lot more than the [11:23] people in the seats hear them, [11:25] I can go through the same motions on the [11:27] songs as well. So it’s like Lord, just [11:30] help us, help us in all these things to [11:32] be present to you and [11:34] also believing that God works through [11:36] repetition. Yeah. [11:37] >> So, like [11:39] worship is very formative. The corporate [11:40] Let’s talk a little bit about gathered [11:42] worship. So, as we’re gathering as His [11:44] people to bring Him praise and to also [11:47] hear from Him both from the word and [11:49] from the song, um [11:51] worship is forming us every week. It [11:53] might not feel like you’re getting [11:55] anything out of it, but week after week [11:57] you’re showing up and you’re letting [11:58] these truths [12:00] get into your heart. And then if you [12:01] sing them, it’s even more so because [12:04] like singing is one of the strongest [12:06] mnemonic devices, which is a fancy way [12:07] of saying helps you remember things like [12:09] A B C D E F G or the 50 states or the [12:12] books of the Bible or all these things [12:14] that we learn in song form, they stay [12:16] with us. Amazing grace, how sweet the [12:19] sound. Everybody can finish that Yeah. [12:21] >> because they say like people with [12:22] dementia even it like [12:25] Huh. snaps things into place when they [12:26] hear the song. They remember. And so, [12:30] worsh- these truths in the songs that we [12:32] sing are going deep into our heart and [12:34] our mind and we’re going to need them at [12:36] some point, you know? And so, [12:38] it’s a very beautiful thing to think [12:41] that even if I am singing mindlessly, at [12:44] least it’s like dripping truth into my [12:47] heart and like storing up all this truth [12:50] deep in my heart so that when I need [12:52] that truth, when I when an a lie from [12:54] the enemy comes, I can tap into the [12:56] truth that’s been stored over the weeks, [12:57] months, years, decades, Yeah. right? And [13:00] so, I think if we look at did I get [13:02] something out of church this week one [13:03] week at a time, it’s kind of it might I [13:05] mean to be honest, I have many weeks [13:07] where I go to church and I’m like, [13:08] well, that was a wash. Yeah. [13:10] >> two thing- two things happen for me at [13:12] church. One, it realigns me every 7 days [13:14] and the second thing is that it [13:17] it also is over time forming me into the [13:20] image of Christ. And like I used you as [13:22] an example, when you pray for the [13:25] offering, like how you pray so rich and [13:28] beautiful and scriptural and deep. [13:31] You’re teaching me how to think and how [13:33] to pray. I love how you pray and it it [13:35] forms me and it’s shaping me and my view [13:38] of God and my own heart and like I want [13:41] to be more like Connor in that, you [13:42] know? And so [13:43] Yeah, I think the gathered worship [13:45] experience is a formative thing and even [13:47] if we’re just going through the motions, [13:50] we should try to fight against that, but [13:51] even that is more beneficial than not, [13:53] Yeah. I think. [13:54] >> Yeah, I mean, one practical point from [13:55] that for parents is when your kids look [13:57] at you and say like, “I’m not getting [13:59] anything out of this.” [14:00] Just tell them they’re wrong and they [14:02] are wrong. Like, I used this as a kid [14:04] all the time. Like, “Ah, I don’t want to [14:05] go. I don’t get anything out of it.” And [14:07] actually my parents were like, “Yeah, [14:08] you don’t you shouldn’t have to go if [14:09] you’re not going to get anything out of [14:10] it.” [14:11] Reality is you may not think you’re [14:12] getting anything out of it, but you are. [14:14] It’s forming you and it’s shaping you. [14:16] I think one of the coolest pictures of [14:18] this, I use this as an illustration [14:19] sometimes, is I forget who says it, but [14:21] it’s some philosopher. He says he says, [14:23] “I kiss my child not only because I love [14:26] him, but so that I will love him.” [14:29] This is a picture of like there’s [14:30] actually something in the practice, in [14:32] the doing, that is [14:34] building love in you, that is shaping [14:36] you and forming you. [14:38] Um like we don’t only praise God because [14:40] we love him, but so that we will love [14:42] him. [14:44] Um there’s really something important [14:46] about singing. So, could you answer to [14:48] the brother or sister that’s in the room [14:50] that’s like, “But I I’m so embarrassed [14:52] about my voice. Maybe I’m so shy. Like, [14:54] I don’t want a so can you just crank the [14:57] music as loud as we can so that no one [14:59] can hear me?” Just sing really quiet or [15:01] something. Yeah, like what do we How do [15:03] we encourage them? Is is that perfectly [15:05] okay? Like, what’s Well, the good news [15:07] is that the Lord tells us to make a [15:09] joyful noise to him. [15:11] >> [laughter] [15:11] >> Even if you [15:12] >> always have to be skillful. [15:13] >> Doesn’t have to be beautiful. You got to [15:15] work work with what you got. Work with [15:17] what God gave you and if you have a [15:18] really ugly voice, I’m sorry, but uh you [15:21] know, joyful noise, baby. [15:24] Uh so, that is part of it. Um but the [15:27] other thing is, do you want to be [15:28] obedient to the commands of God? Like, [15:31] imagine if I’m like, “Well, [15:33] you know, you don’t you don’t have a [15:34] great voice, so you don’t have to obey [15:35] that command.” I mean, now take that and [15:37] apply that to some other command from [15:39] God. Yeah. Like, “Do not fornicate” or [15:41] something. And and you [15:43] Well, I’m not really good at that, so [15:45] [laughter] [15:45] chastity is like uh it’s kind of hard, [15:48] so I’m going to you know, it’s like, [15:49] “No.” Okay, so obviously, if we want to [15:52] be obedient to God, again, worship is [15:54] bringing God glory in all things. If he [15:56] says, “Sing to me” and he says it 55 [15:58] times as a command, then you better open [16:01] your mouth and do what he says if you [16:02] want to be obedient in that, knowing [16:04] that he’s using that to, as I said, form [16:08] Christ in you and and uh put those [16:10] truths in your heart, but also to sing [16:12] and encourage the faith of the people [16:14] around you because [16:15] what we don’t understand is that [16:17] actually the corporate worship [16:19] experience, it’s a gathered church time, [16:22] is for the edification of one another. [16:24] It’s not just bringing your praise to [16:26] God. There’s actually some wrong [16:28] understandings about this. Like, a lot [16:29] of uh worship leaders are like, “Well, [16:30] we’re just coming to do bring our [16:32] ministry to the Lord.” That’s true, and [16:34] they’re using like the Old Testament [16:37] temple, like they brought stuff to the [16:38] temple to Yeah, that’s true. That is [16:40] true. But in the New Testament, in [16:42] Ephesians, those two passages I [16:44] mentioned, Ephesians and Colossians, it [16:46] says, “Sing to one another with psalms, [16:49] hymns, and spiritual songs.” [16:51] So, you’re actually singing to one [16:52] another. In fact, in Ephesians, when it [16:55] says, “Sing and make melody,” you would [16:57] think first it would say, “to God” and [16:59] then to one another, but actually the [17:01] first per group of people that’s [17:02] categorized there is to one another [17:04] first. So, somehow strangely, during our [17:07] gathered worship time, we’re meant to [17:08] sing to one another first and to [17:11] encourage one another with psalms, [17:12] hymns, and spiritual songs, to put those [17:14] truths into each other’s hearts. It’s [17:15] like, your voice [17:17] is meant to encourage me. It’s not just [17:19] going to God, but it’s going to my [17:21] heart. And so, you know, like a bow and [17:23] arrow, you’re you’re going to pull back [17:24] that arrow of truth, and you’re going to [17:26] shoot it across the room. You might not [17:27] even know who you’re shooting it at, but [17:28] your voice is going up, and it’s landing [17:30] in someone’s heart who needs that, and [17:32] it’s lodging there for them. And it’s [17:34] like, there are going to be weeks where [17:35] I need your faith, and you’re there [17:37] going to be weeks where you need to [17:38] borrow some of my faith. And like, as we [17:40] choose to lift our voices up to the Lord [17:44] and to one another, we’re adding to the [17:46] whole. We’re adding to the passion. [17:47] We’re adding to the faith. And like, [17:49] when I see somebody who I know who’s [17:50] going through a hard time choosing to [17:52] sing to the Lord in the time of singing, [17:55] I am so encouraged by their faith. Mhm. [17:57] And I’m not saying you always have to [17:59] show up and belt it out. Like, there are [18:01] different seasons in our lives, but I do [18:03] think we want to be obedient to the Lord [18:04] to sing, and also know that our singing [18:07] is not just for the Lord, but for the [18:08] brothers and sisters around us. And some [18:11] weeks, my voice is going to need to [18:12] encourage you, but there will be other [18:14] weeks where your voice is going to need [18:15] to encourage me. And so, like, don’t [18:18] hold back on that. [18:19] >> Yeah. Maybe a practical tip for this, [18:22] this has been helpful to me, is I think [18:24] growing up hearing people saying [18:26] like, you you either get real judgy, [18:28] you’re like, man, that person’s they [18:30] should not be singing that loud. Or you [18:32] start asking like, well, they’re being a [18:33] distraction, and like, every time your [18:36] heart and mind leans towards that, like, [18:38] replace it with like, God, thank you for [18:41] their singing. Like, [18:43] thank the Lord that they are singing [18:45] loudly, or that they’re singing with [18:46] joy, whatever it is. [18:48] And and I’ve started doing this here and [18:50] there. Like, during the greeting time, [18:52] if someone around me was singing [18:53] especially loud, so, like, actually, [18:55] when you shake their hands, like, hey, [18:56] brother, sister, your singing was a [18:57] blessing to me this morning. [18:58] >> Mhm. Um [19:00] like, I just seen people light up. Like, [19:02] they do light up when they say it. [19:03] Sometimes they’re embarrassed, and like, [19:04] oh, but it wasn’t very good. And like, [19:05] no, like, really, it encourages me. [19:08] Yeah. Imagine if we didn’t gather and we [19:10] didn’t sing to one another. Like, there [19:12] would be such an empty space in my [19:14] heart. Like, yeah, if if it was just me [19:17] and one other person on the far side of [19:18] the room singing, it would just be so [19:20] sad. But, like, the voices going [19:22] together are just uh [19:24] >> where participating in the body of [19:26] Christ. Like, every member doing their [19:28] job, opening their mouths to praise the [19:30] Lord together [19:31] as needed. [19:33] Yeah, that’s good. Is that kind of why [19:35] in terms of the flow of service, is that [19:36] why we start off with worship first and [19:39] do like a few songs at the beginning? [19:41] I don’t know why that order is. [19:44] I don’t think there is any biblical [19:45] precedence for the order of liturgy. [19:48] Um there are other service flows, like [19:50] even if you look at like the Orthodox [19:52] church or the Catholic church, like I’m [19:54] sure they they’ve got songs interspersed [19:56] throughout the times of speaking, and [19:58] there’s cantering, and all these other [19:59] stuff. And it’s like, I don’t think God [20:01] gives us I think this is just like an [20:02] American cultural [20:04] >> Yeah. Yeah. Or it’s to make sure people [20:06] get in there on time. [20:07] >> That’s true. A little buffer. [20:08] >> Okay, I’m going to take a moment, [20:09] everybody. I’m going to take a moment. [20:11] I’m going to share something lovingly to [20:13] >> Brother, be convicting. Like, convict [20:15] our people. [20:15] >> I’m going to I’m going to because most [20:17] of you [20:19] won’t hear this at the if I say it at [20:20] the beginning of a service because [20:21] you’re not actually in the room. For [20:23] those of you who come late to service, [20:26] I just want to lovingly exhort you and [20:28] encourage you that why would we not [20:31] bring the full hour and 15 minutes [20:35] of of attention, affection, [20:38] you know, focus? Why would we not bring [20:40] God his full hour and 15 minutes? If [20:42] we’re only giving him an hour and 15 [20:44] minutes a week [20:46] of our lives to be together with his [20:48] people and to worship him, why are we [20:49] skipping [20:51] 40 of those minutes or 20 of those [20:53] minutes? Let’s just say you’re 20 [20:54] minutes late. Like, why are you not [20:55] giving him the his full time that he’s [20:57] due, you know? [20:59] Um I just I think if you were going to a [21:02] concert that you paid a lot of money to [21:03] go be at, you would probably arrive 2 [21:06] hours early to make sure you were [21:08] getting through security on time and [21:10] etc. etc. But like we’re worshipping the [21:12] God of the universe, not some pop star, [21:14] right? And so [21:16] I don’t know. I just want to encourage [21:17] people in our church be on time for [21:18] service. Not even because it’s the time [21:20] of singing, although we have I think [21:23] said clearly why singing matters and why [21:25] it matters to God and to us, but I just [21:28] think in general like [21:30] why are we not bringing God his full due [21:33] on Sunday mornings? And I would [21:35] encourage everyone in our church to not [21:37] be late. [21:37] >> Yeah. And I mean what are we teaching [21:39] ourselves and our kids that like yeah, [21:42] well the first couple songs don’t really [21:43] matter. Or in fact like the thing that [21:46] we start with is what you brought up [21:48] that we’re responding to God [21:50] in his revelation in worship. So we [21:52] start our service with a call to worship [21:54] where God calls us to sing. If you miss [21:56] that every single week, like that’s [21:57] actually doing something to us that that [22:00] we’re training ourselves that it’s [22:01] unimportant. We’re training ourselves [22:03] that [22:05] I don’t know. I’m like it it is a big [22:06] deal that we are in the room to [22:08] encourage each other from the get-go. [22:10] Maybe challenging, but we need we need [22:13] to be convicted of these things. [22:15] Love you guys. [22:16] >> [laughter] [22:17] >> I’m definitely guilty of showing up late [22:19] a little a few times. [22:22] So [22:23] maybe here’s a question. I think we get [22:25] this a lot is how do we pick the songs [22:28] that we sing? So you you talked about [22:30] the truth is important like what we’re [22:31] saying really matters. Mhm. Are all [22:34] songs created equal? [22:36] Is it just musical sort of things that [22:37] causes us to pick our songs? [22:39] >> Mhm. Yeah. So I have um five criteria [22:43] that I use to decide whether or not a [22:45] song is worth singing in church because [22:48] not all songs are good congregational [22:51] songs. Mhm. So a lot of times people [22:53] will send me songs on the radio. They [22:54] hear like the song on the radio or on [22:56] Spotify and they’re like this is great. [22:57] You should sing it. And it’s like a pop [22:58] song about I don’t know, following the [23:00] Lord. And it it’s a good song, but it [23:03] won’t work for the gathered [23:05] congregation, or it wouldn’t work that [23:07] well. So, I do try to find what I would [23:11] call congregationally friendly songs, [23:14] and there are five criteria. I’ll just [23:16] go through four cuz the fifth one’s not [23:18] that important, but the first one is is [23:20] it biblical? Meaning, are the words [23:22] scriptural? Do they come from scripture? [23:24] Is there any line in the song that is [23:26] not from scripture or is misleading or [23:30] is just straight up not biblical [23:32] theology. Cuz there are some songs that [23:35] many of the lines are solid, and then [23:37] you get to this one line and you’re [23:38] like, that’s actually not true. You [23:40] know? And so, we shouldn’t sing that [23:42] because as someone who’s putting words [23:45] in your mouth, [23:46] and as someone who is helping you put [23:49] these words in your heart for the long [23:50] term, like I will be held account [23:53] to account for that because it says that [23:55] if anyone is a teacher, you will be a [23:57] judged more strictly. Well, in that [23:58] sense I am a teacher. Right? So, [24:01] biblical is first, second is singable, [24:04] meaning is it easy enough for the [24:06] average congruent to be able to catch on [24:08] and sing. Cuz if it’s really syncopated, [24:10] which is a fancy word of saying like [24:11] weird rhythms. [24:13] If it’s hard to like that [24:14] then it’s too many syllables and words, [24:17] and it’s hard to get like just caught up [24:19] in the moment and sing to the Lord, [24:20] right? So, singable, biblical, singable, [24:23] is it God-centered? Personally, even [24:25] though I said [24:26] we’re singing to one another, I do like [24:28] to put the songs to be God-pointed. Cuz [24:32] there are songs like come all you weary, [24:33] come all you thirsty, come to the well [24:35] that never runs dry. [24:37] And that one too is also pointed more at [24:38] the congregation, right? So, there [24:41] that’s biblical, we should do that. [24:43] There’s a lot of songs about that, but [24:44] most of my songs I want them to be me [24:47] telling the Lord that he’s good. Like [24:49] ascribe to the Lord the glory due his [24:51] name. You’re you’re ascribing to him. [24:54] So, [clears throat] I try to say [24:54] God-centered songs. So, biblical, [24:57] singable, God-centered, and the last one [24:59] is [25:01] uh what is it? [25:01] >> That’s number You’re on number four [25:02] unless we’ve Wait, biblical, singable, [25:06] God-centered, and then number four is [25:09] Let me think. [25:10] You’re going to cut this out. [25:11] >> them in front of me. I’m sleeping [25:12] sitting in front of me this whole time. [25:13] I’m sorry. [25:13] >> Oh, what’s the What’s the fourth one? [25:15] Well, so, clear. [25:17] Oh, yeah, clear. Clear. Cuz you said [25:20] God-centered, that’s vertical. You’ve [25:21] You’ve that word before. Clear, and then [25:23] necessary. [25:23] >> Yeah. Clear is meaning Do I understand [25:26] what this song is actually saying or is [25:28] it just a bunch of Christianese? Cuz [25:30] there’s a lot of songs where they’ll [25:31] just take a bunch of Christian phrases [25:32] and stack them, but it doesn’t say [25:34] anything. [25:35] >> Yeah. [25:35] So, we want to make sure that what we’re [25:37] saying is not just random Christian [25:38] phrases, but it’s helping us to [25:40] >> Right. you know, understand with our [25:42] mind. Worship the Lord with your mind, [25:43] right? Um so, yeah. Um but yeah, how do [25:46] we push a song into the worship [25:48] vocabulary? So, we we introduce it [25:50] usually in the offering slot cuz that’s [25:52] just a good spot for it. People are [25:53] sitting and passing a plate anyway. [25:55] Uh do it again that next week, so it’s [25:57] twice now they’ve heard it. And then um [26:00] put it into the set the next week. And [26:02] then maybe if the church is starting to [26:04] to get used to it, respond to it, kind [26:06] of you got to gauge whether or not this [26:07] song works or not. Just cuz I like it [26:09] doesn’t mean it’s going to be good for [26:10] my congregation. But then after like the [26:12] fourth week, [26:13] do it one more time and then give it a [26:14] break and then kind of rotate it in for [26:17] a little bit and then after a while um [26:20] just kind of pull it out when you need [26:21] it. I I pick songs based on the sermon [26:23] passage, so whatever the pastor’s [26:25] preaching on, I’m going to build my set [26:27] to be about the themes in that passage [26:29] so that there’s cohesion across the [26:31] entire service. And [26:34] yeah, so sometimes that song that I [26:36] introduced [26:37] a month ago won’t really work for like [26:39] another month. But at least it’s been [26:41] pushed into the church’s vocabulary. So, [26:43] when I do pull it out, they remember it. [26:45] Gotcha. Gotcha. How often do you add new [26:47] songs do you find? Not often enough, [26:49] probably. Mhm. But [clears throat] I [26:51] think we have enough like [26:52] >> personal kind of objective thing. [26:54] >> I feel like we get new enough stuff [26:56] Yeah. [26:56] >> Like maybe every two months I’m bringing [26:58] out a new one that I’m really working to [27:00] push into the church. [27:01] >> Yeah. Yeah. But we already have like a [27:02] hundred and fifty songs. So it’s like [27:04] how many more do we need? That’s where [27:06] the necessary part comes in that you [27:08] just read. Um is is it necessary? Um cuz [27:12] it’s if we already have like [27:13] seventeen great songs that we all love [27:15] and know deeply about grace [27:17] >> ideas, you know. then why do I need to [27:19] put another one and just because, you [27:20] know. You need to swap it or something. [27:21] Yeah. Maybe. That makes sense. Um okay. [27:24] What if [27:25] what if I’m an Alex critic and I just [27:28] really don’t like your songs. Is this [27:29] something like find a new church over? [27:31] Is this something to [27:34] what what how do we do deal with this? [27:36] >> Yeah. If you’re an Alex critic, I don’t [27:37] blame you. [27:39] >> [laughter] [27:39] >> Start with start with that. [27:41] >> Self-deprecating over here. Hey. Hey. [27:43] I know myself very well. So I would I [27:45] would agree with you. Um you know, style [27:48] is very subjective. So just like I might [27:52] not resonate with a certain pastor’s [27:53] preaching style [27:55] I also might not resonate with a certain [27:57] worship leader’s [27:59] choices of songs or style or how they [28:01] lead. And [28:03] I wouldn’t say leave a church over it, [28:05] but it is a big part of picking a [28:06] church. In fact, I think I want to say [28:09] the top three things people look for in [28:10] a church are preaching Mhm. music, [28:13] children’s ministry. So it’s obviously [28:16] important. So as you’re picking a [28:17] church, ask yourself you know, not just [28:19] do I like the style? Not that that’s a [28:22] shallow way to go about it. But [28:24] >> That’s the wrong question to be Right. [28:25] Is this worship pastor leading me to [28:27] focus on Jesus? [28:29] Is he giving me truth to sing? And is he [28:33] getting out of the way? Cuz some worship [28:34] leaders are very prideful and they’re [28:36] trying to get a little bit of glory for [28:37] themselves. Mhm. How they move their [28:39] head or whatever, you know. They’re like [28:40] look at me. I’m so great. So if if the [28:43] worship leader seems to be humble um [28:46] biblical God-centered, then I’d say, you [28:50] know, try to adjust to the style. And if [28:52] you really can’t, then Yeah. go find a [28:55] church that has those same attributes, [28:56] but maybe a style that more resonates [28:58] with you. Yeah. Like some people, they [29:00] come to our 290 service, we love you [29:01] all, and um they go there because they [29:04] like the classical songs. And it’s like, [29:06] great. Like, at least we are able to [29:08] offer that for them at this time, you [29:11] know? So, that’s a a blessing. Yeah. [29:14] What do you think? Yeah, I think I’d say [29:15] probably more firm. Like, if you’re [29:18] leaving the church for style reasons, [29:21] like you probably shouldn’t [29:23] if if those other boxes are checked. If [29:26] it’s biblical, like even our five [29:27] criteria, if if those things are being [29:29] met in the songs, [29:30] you may need to recognize that [29:32] that these are the right songs for you [29:34] to start liking. So, worship with them [29:37] and seek the Lord in it, and [29:39] um [29:41] yeah, I I think [29:43] I think our priorities need to be really [29:44] straight when it comes to this. Like, it [29:47] not it’s it’s most important that it’s [29:48] biblical, that it’s clear, that it’s [29:50] singable, that it’s to God, that these [29:52] things, [29:53] than it is that it’s like, whatever’s [29:55] catchy or hip or loud or whatever it is. [29:58] Right. And also think about how often in [30:01] the New Testament we’re called to lay [30:02] aside our preferences for the good of [30:04] others. Yeah. So, like, laying aside our [30:06] preferences is a huge part of being a [30:08] mature Christian. Yeah. So, and it’s not [30:10] just about music. Like, Paul says, “Hey, [30:12] if they want to eat meat, [30:14] who am I to judge them?” Or, right? So, [30:16] it’s like [30:18] >> Yeah. [30:18] That’s good. Mhm. So, [clears throat] [30:20] what would you tell the brother or [30:21] sister who comes into church on a Sunday [30:24] and is like, “I just don’t feel joyful. [30:26] Like, God tells me to make a joyful [30:28] noise. I’m not feeling that. Like, it [30:30] feels so unauthentic to sing or [30:33] dishonest to sing right now.” [30:35] Should we How would you How would you [30:37] encourage that brother? I mean, I I [30:40] think God always expects us to be [30:42] joyful. There is a time for everything [30:44] under the sun, right? Think Think about [30:46] all the different categories that fit [30:47] under that. Yeah. I mean, I genuinely [30:50] think like come in your sorrow, come in [30:52] your sadness, come in your pain, come in [30:54] your worry, come in your loss, come in [30:56] your doubt. Just come. Like genuinely [30:58] just come. [30:59] >> Yeah, that’s good. And it You don’t need [31:01] to come be all joyful. I don’t like the [31:03] churches that are all up into the right, [31:05] you know, no offense, but like that [31:06] seems to be a thing in the modern [31:08] worship movement and like in Up into the [31:10] right? What is that? I’ll I’ll explain [31:11] in a minute, but like the in the [31:13] megachurch type movement, and I guess [31:16] tech- technically speaking Rolling Hills [31:18] Covenant would be megachurch size, but I [31:21] don’t sense that we’re doing this what [31:23] my friend Aaron Is it Aaron? I can’t [31:25] remember. Aaron Williams? No, I don’t [31:27] remember which Aaron it is. I’ve [31:28] interviewed a few Aarons, but one of my [31:29] friends Aaron says it’s He calls it [31:32] jubilistic triumphalism, meaning [31:34] everything is always positive. It’s like [31:36] a hype show. [31:37] >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. [31:38] >> God’s got your back. God’s always for [31:40] you. Nothing bad’s going to happen. The [31:42] devil can’t touch you. Da da da. And [31:44] there might be some truth in all that, [31:45] right? But like that doesn’t mean you’re [31:46] not going to go through seasons of loss. [31:48] Yeah. Like God let Job go through [31:50] massive loss. So, I don’t like churches [31:54] that are like, “If you’re having a bad [31:56] day, you’ve got the wrong attitude.” [31:58] It’s like, “No, God understands. He made [32:00] us.” Like we can come to him in all [32:02] things, in all seasons, in all [32:04] attitudes. The main thing is just come. [32:07] You know, just come. Lord, here’s where [32:09] I am. Meet me where I am. I’m broken. [32:11] I’m in pain. I need you, you know? So, [32:13] that’s all he wants, I think. That’s [32:15] good. So, singing those words can be an [32:17] expression of your sorrow. Like even [32:20] even if it doesn’t feel even if it’s not [32:22] coming from a place of joy, it may be [32:23] coming from a place of sadness or doubt [32:25] or whatever it is. Like you singing [32:26] those words is still [32:28] praising. It’s not Yeah, there’s not [32:30] enough worship songs of lament right [32:31] now, right? And that’s kind of what I’m [32:33] saying, jubilistic triumphalism, up into [32:35] the right. There’s no like down into the [32:37] left category of worship songs, you [32:40] know. [32:40] >> Yeah, yeah. So. Is it time to start [32:42] writing some? Yeah, I guess I just [32:43] better write some really depressing [32:44] songs. Yeah, I mean well to that point [32:47] maybe it’s a bit of a tangent, but if [32:48] there were songs like that, like when [32:49] would you include them? Yeah, I mean [32:51] maybe in response to a sermon that’s [32:53] down into the left. [32:54] >> Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe in the [32:56] offering offering slot, yeah. I mean I [32:58] do think we do need to fuel people’s [33:00] faith. So we don’t want to always just [33:02] be like, “Oh, woe is me, eeyore, eeyore, [33:04] eeyore.” Yeah. But [33:06] Yeah. But sometimes there’s a need for [33:07] that or Definitely. I would be [33:09] interesting to [33:10] ask AI. You know, run run the Bible [33:13] through AI and say like how what [33:14] percentage of scripture is lament versus [33:19] enthusiasm. Mm. That’s good. [33:20] >> It’d be interesting to see. [33:21] >> Yeah, that is interesting. [33:23] Yeah, maybe we could go with like [33:24] rapid-fire takeaways. Okay. Is that [33:25] good? Sure. Practical tips. [33:27] Um [33:29] Uh who do you want to start? Do you have [33:31] any off the top of your head? Come to [33:32] church. [33:34] >> [laughter] [33:34] >> On time. Your presence, yeah, on time. [33:36] Your presence and your participation [33:38] matters. Hebrews [33:39] uh now I’m going to blank on the verse [33:41] 10:25. [33:43] Do not forsake the assembly, but gather [33:45] all together more and encourage one [33:47] another all the more as you see the day [33:48] approaching, right? And so it’s like [33:49] Hebrews 10 reminds us that our presence [33:53] at church matters. I need Connor there. [33:55] I need Nick there. I need you there. You [33:56] need me there. If we all dip out, like [34:00] there’s no one to fuel the faith that [34:01] I’m going to need us again, I’m going to [34:03] need your faith and I’m going to need [34:04] you to encourage me in my faith. So [34:06] um yeah, come to church, come to church [34:08] on time, and then bring your [34:10] participation just as you are, wherever [34:12] you’re at, in whatever season, whatever [34:16] attitude you’re coming in, like it’s [34:18] okay. Just come and be authentic and [34:20] bring it to the Lord. And if you have a [34:23] hard time singing, ask him to help you. [34:25] Lord, help me sing these truths. Lord, [34:26] thank you for these truths, even if I [34:28] don’t feel them right now, help me to [34:30] sing them and I pray that as I sing them [34:32] that you would change my heart to [34:34] believe them to be real, you know? Yeah, [34:36] that’s good. I think another one, [34:39] even if you don’t especially like the [34:41] music, even if you think they like [34:43] ruined this classic hymn by putting on [34:45] this new little melody that’s just [34:47] making it worse, [34:49] like recognize that you’re singing this [34:51] for the sake of your brothers and [34:52] sisters, for the sake of Christ, for the [34:54] sake of the church. Like sing loudly, [34:56] even when you don’t like the music, for [34:57] the sake of other people. Yeah. [34:59] Recognize that your singing is for the [35:01] other believers. Yeah, sing to God, but [35:03] also the people around you, too. Yeah. [35:05] Yeah. [35:05] And then, maybe another one, recognize [35:07] that how you live your life affects your [35:09] worship. [35:10] Like it’s if you are honoring the Lord [35:13] with your lips, but your heart is far [35:15] from him, he’s going to be speaking to [35:17] you the same way that he’s speaking to [35:18] through Amos, [35:19] like I don’t want I don’t want any of [35:21] that. Um [35:22] >> Yeah. [35:23] Worship starts [35:25] before we start singing. Starts in your [35:27] everyday walk. [35:28] All right, thanks for joining us today. [35:30] We appreciate your time, and we hope you [35:32] got something out of it or learned [35:33] something new.